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capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/02/2009


SWEET! Just got my RP250 delivered....

As to sound output/recording:

Using headphones is lame IMO.

For real-time/no latency sound out of the computer speakers, connect the RP250 via the headphone output to the Line-in port on your soundcard. (1/8" to 1/8" cable required)
This is best when modifying patches with X-edit.
When I hook it up this way, I DO get some line noise.... sounds like a ground issue/low buzz, so not the best recording option.

For recording, using USB input is crystal clear - no buzz. So I guess headphones are still required to monitor in real time while recording.

Just my observations in the 1st hour.... :-)

EDIT:
Hmmm.... actually, the buzz is coming from RF interference from my computer monitor (and televison). Try standing next to your tv.... BUZZZZZZZZZ.
And changing outlets also helped a little....
So I guess when recording, stand AWAY (far,far lol) from your monitor/tv, or just turn it off.
Oh, the sound of silence! (buzzing that is!)

CH

Slayblaze

member since: 08/13/2009
messages: 272
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/02/2009


Glad you're liking it so far, there is quite a bit of info in past threads here so I would take a quick look back through them if I were you, when you have some free time. If you have multiple sets of headphones I suggest trying each out as I've found that mine all sound very very different with the 250's output where they don't sound that different with normal audio. Might even be a good excuse to upgrade your headphones if you only have cheapies!

You have most likely already figured this out, but you can still put that 1/8" to 1/8" cable to good use: run it from the Line Out from your PC's soundcard (you might have to use the actual speaker out jack instead depending on your soundcard) and run it to the Line In on your RP250. This basically gives you another channel of audio into the RP in addition to the USB, and is another way of eliminating latency. Any sounds normally played through your PC speakers would now be played through your guitar amp or headphones plugged into the RP (or both actually). The only bad thing about that would be you would lose the sound to your PC speakers unless you A/B switch it or have a spare PC to dedicate to it, and also you will hear every little beep your PC makes through the guitar amp/headphones unless you disable them through the windows audio control panel.

For my DAW I use Reaper (has an unlimited free trial if you want to try) and Audacity to a lesser extent.

Let us know if you have any questions, I think there are still a few of us that check these forums regularly.

Also make sure you are running the 2.0 firmware and if not, then follow the upgrade instructions here because it does make a performance difference:

http://www.digitech.com/software_support/RP250Windows.php

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/03/2009


Hiya Slayblaze!

I managed to read the whole RP250 (and RP350) forums - some good info.
Nice to have the resource.

I've determined that a 1/8" out from RP250 headphone jack into the Line-in of the soundcard and then monitoring through the PC speakers works best for me.
(hmmm, wondering if there's any difference using a 1/4" from the mono or even left/right RP250 outs into the soundcard would be any different/better? Seems like it would be the same? )

Reaper is pretty cool. It has a little larger learning curve as it's not quite as intuitive to use.
Figuring out how to use Soundfonts was a head scratcher.
You need a Soundfont player/plugin to use AS a VST plugin...
I got SFZ: ( http://www.cakewalk.com/support/project5/sfz.aspx ) works well.
The ASIO4all drivers seem to cause problems though. Pops, crackling, crashing.
I switched back to my sound card drivers, works flawlessly.

I saw a link here on the forum to RiffWorks, kind of neat (but gimiky really). But had problems again with popping, crackling with the ASIO4all drivers (wouldn't even work with stock soundcard drivers). And I prefer being able to edit/create drum tracks etc with a piano roll.

For $39, maybe I'll get Cakewalk Music Creator 5. Looks like it has a cool drum creator and decent functionality (and I used old Cakewalk stuff for years). I can't see spending $150-$500 for some software.... :-0

And thanks, I did update to 2.0. And downloaded some user presets and songs. BARKMN, CRAZYT (<- 1 of yours!) (Randy Rhoads - he rocked so F-n hard!!) and BARACU (Heart) are a few of my favs.
My favorite stock presets to tweak have been Greaser and OCTDVD <- way cool with some tweaking.

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/09/2009


Some awesome, FREE VST plugins:

Yellow Tools Independence Free:
http://www.yellowtools.us/cp21/cms/index.php?id=842

HUGE download = 2GB (has 8 large sound files) - but has some great sounds.
Best for drums and bass
_ _ _

From DSK:
http://www.dskmusic.com/blog/?page_id=3

1) DSK Virtuoso: 6 instrument layers with 40 awesome sounding instruments. Put a whole Orchestra at your fingertips. 5+ Stars!
2) DSK SaxaphoneZ: 3 realistic soundings saxes
_ _ _

From Kjaerhus:
http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php

1) Classic Delay
2) Classic Reverb
3) Classic Chorus
_ _ _

Reaper:
ReaEQ is a great EQ. Use as an 11-band EQ and setup a high/low pass filter.

CH

funkymonkey

member since: 08/31/2009
messages: 9
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


Good to hear you been using Reaper too Slay, its a good program considering its free! Was wondering if you could tell me how to record some guitar using the RP250 through the USB input within Reaper, if its possible..

Cheers :)

Slayblaze

member since: 08/13/2009
messages: 272
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


It's pretty easy, just open a new track and arm it and then hit record and begin playing, hit stop when finished and save it. If everything is set up right then everytime you insert a blank new track in the current project it defaults to the guitar usb input. I have mine set up like this:

Options > Preferences > Audio > Device > Audio System = Waveout, Input Device = Microsoft Sound Mapper, Output Device = Microsoft Sound Mapper

Everything else is pretty much default settings if I remember correctly.

Make sure that in Windows Audio (control panel) you have the Sound Recording and Sound Playback both set to "DigiTech USB 1-2 In/Out"

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


I've found the USB setup a little tricky.
If you setup like Slayblaze recs, I've found choosing 24 bit sample format does not work. Just select 16 bit.
(The RP250 doesn't seem to handle 24 bit)

Or select ASIO and the RP250 driver.

I just use Line-In and bypass the latency issues with USB and ASIO.

1) 1/8" from RP250 headphone out to 1/8" Line In Audigy 2 soundcard
2) select line in on Creative Sound panel.
3) select Audio Device: < WaveOut > in Reaper
4) record track while hearing the mix and guitar over computer speakers at the same time in perfect sync/zero latency.

Soooo.....

A) Would the sound be more 'true' using a 1/4" out of the RP250 mono output (and then 1/8" to line-in) than the headphone jack? Is there an impedence issue with the headphone jack?

B) Rather than waveout, is Direct Sound a better option? Waveout is supposedly a legacy format, and Direct Sound is the new API.
(what about Kernel Streaming? This is supposedly the most direct route to the soundcard and thus should offer the truest sound?)

C) Should the mixer/amp button be set to mixer? (yes?)

D) Will USB/ASIO and thus the RP250 as the 'soundcard' actually be sonically better than that of the Audigy 2?

Note: do NOT use the mic in as it has a cheap/noisy preamp boost. ONLY the line-in.

Slayblaze

member since: 08/13/2009
messages: 272
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


Capt, you make some good observations and raise some interesting questions that I don't exactly know the correct answer to. But I'm primarily a PC and Gaming geek and only secondarily a Guitar geek! A lot of this stuff I feel I should know better than I do but I just haven't devoted much time into researching sound recording... I have six computers sitting right here, each one I built myself and did all the software and hardware setup personally, but for some reason I am seriously lacking in the recording knowledge that I should probably have, but just have not had the time or interest to delve deeper into it so far.

What I have done is try out a few differerent connection configurations between the PC and RP250, and I just settled on the one that "just worked right" on the first try with zero latency. The USB/Waveout seemed the easiest and sounds best to me, or at least good enough for the casual recordings that I do. To my understanding (which as I said is really incomplete) the "bit rate" will not make any difference whatsoever in what we are doing here. 16-bit is known as "CD quality" and I really doubt if anyone who truly needed a higher audio resolution than that would be using a RP250 to record with!

...Just as an aside, something that may or may not be interesting, is that I seem to recall several years back when Creative released their first 24-bit card (Audigy 2 ZS) that it turned out that it was all just a marketing ploy by Creative -something they are wellknown for doing- and that in fact those cards did not contain a 24 bit chip anywhere but rather upsampled the output stage from 16 to 24... or something like that, I don't recall the specifics other than a LOT of audiophiles were raging mad at Creative at the time for lying about another overhyped soundcard. They advertised 24-bit recording and playback but really the soundcard just recorded in 16-bit and then resampled to 24! Two of my older PC's have an Audigy 2 ZS, in fact I have a PC dedicated only to running X-Edit/RP250/Reaper on it that has one in it and its great for an older card but true 24-bit it is NOT. My main PC has a X-Fi Fatal1ty and it sounds worlds better than the Audigy 2 but really the Creative cards are for Gaming performance rather than some of the really nice high-end soundcards for recording like the RME HDSPe RayDAT or Lynx AES16eSRC ...

Back on topic, I don't believe I would use the headphone output of the RP for recording, even casually, even though it is possible. I just don't like the sound quality through the headphone jack although it sounds good, I still detect a 'digital fizz' in the upper registers. Fine for private practicing without an amp at 3am so as not to wake the neighbors but it seems like Digitech's headphone preamp is where they really cut corners, I don't know if it's an impedence issue though. To me the regular 1/4" out and the USB out sounds perfect with no fizzyness.

Running the headphone-jack output as a recording source also means that you have to go through your soundcard and whatever limitations are built into it, where on the other hand when you go through USB your RP literally becomes the soundcard, it's like one less layer between the guitar/RP and the PC itself. Digitech's own ASIO driver is installed, and in my limited experience in trying Directsound methods using the Digitech driver or other 3rd party drivers is where I started running into weird latency and sound issues that seemed to be overcomplicating recording software routing setups. I got several things to work finally but eventually just went back to USB/Wave out for the sake of simplicity and I had no other issues with it.

I got the following tip from some other message board tallking about the RP250 back a long time ago, this guy was saying never to use the "Amp" setting switch and always use the "Mixer" setting even when you are actually going through a guitar amp because the Amp setting is way too distorted and oddly compressed. Until I saw his message I didn't even notice it somehow but he was right... all the AMP setting does is make everything sound super distorted and crackley, I never ever use the Amp setting anymore.

Anyway there's my two cents worth ;)

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


two cents? More like a buck-twenty-five ;-)

Yeah, I've read about the Creative 24 bit fiasco somewhere, so I guess it's the soundcard with the 16/24 bit issue.
So the RP250 handles 24 bit?

And there is a real difference between 16/24 bit. When recording, you cget alot more sample points so the waveform is truer to the original sound.
It's like a 3 megapixel camera will take pictures just fine, but a 10 megapixel camera will offer much more clarity.
You still need to convert that 24 bit to 16 bit to burn to a CD, but the conversion will have more data to use.

Guess I'll have to re-visit the USB setup... never found a way to get zero latency without using headphones.
But if the sound quality is better, then maybe it's the way to go.
Would be cool to see some graphs/data analysis of sound samples from the various methods as 'scientific' proof as to which is best.

And if sticking with line-in, at the very least I'll pick up a 1/4"to1/8" plug and route out of the mono out jack rather than the headphone jack.

And yes, I'd love a better sound card. But my once great PC is now 5 yrs old (never went more than 18 months in the past) and getting close to a new one. So no dropping $$ for upgrades at this point :-P
I'm waiting for the Intel i7 chips to drop in price and Windows 7 bugs to be worked out first... 6 months?
The new Intel i chips have new instruction sets, no FrontSideBus, and have some serious performance gains over the previous architecture.
Heck, maybe even save a few bucks and go with an i5 chip as they're only about 10% slower than the i7's and are now available.

Slayblaze

member since: 08/13/2009
messages: 272
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


I just played around with the audio device setup in Reaper a bit more and the only Sample Format setting that results in a signal is 16-bit. Selecting 24-bit or 32-bit results in no audio signal so it does seem that the RP only does 16-bit. I did switch Reaper's 'Audio System' setting from WaveOut to DirectSound and it works fine but I don't notice any detectable difference, but maybe there is some advantage that is measureable but subtle..?

The whole issue of "more bits always means better sound" question is something that I'm a bit confused over, and I guess I am sceptical enough that I would need to do some reading to find out if that statement is really true or not. I know that when it comes to the computer world, many people might be tempted to think that a 64-bit OS is twice as fast as a 32-bit OS which is simply not true. In some situations (in most situations currently actually) a 64-bit OS is slower than a 32-bit OS because most software was intended for 32-bit, although as time goes on more and more programs can take advantage of 64-bit addressing. Of course, the bits we're concerned with for audio purposes are a totally different subject with a different set of rules, I just want to make sure I understand the differences.

Going back to Reaper's Audio Device Settings panel for a moment, I'm wondering if we might be confusing "Sample Format" with the "Sample Rate" setting. Here is a question: which is better...?

Sample Format: 24-bit
Samplerate : 44100 Hz

or

Sample Format: 16-bit
Samplerate: 48000 Hz

I do understand that more samples would result in more accurate sound, just as the higher megapixel cameras have more detail, but there is a definite difference in Reaper between the sample format and rate - I guess I really should just look at the documentation to see what it is, eh?

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/21/2009


Thanks for the confirmation the RP250 doesn't do 24 bit.
I thought I saw some advertising that says it does??
(Creative drama lol)

"Here is a question: which is better...?
Sample Format: 24-bit
Samplerate : 44100 Hz
or
Sample Format: 16-bit
Samplerate: 48000 Hz"

Hmmm, comparing apples and oranges can be tough.

And the end product would probably matter too.
Different for a 16 bit CD vs. an Mp3?

The rate is the number of samples per second.
The format is the number of data points for each of those samples.

Between the two... probably the faster sample rate because the end product is probably going to be 16 bit anyway? So should get more samples per second rather than more bits per sample?
(then again, a CD is 44100 Hz not 48000 HZ - so that will end up being coverted also)
How's about recording at 24-bit AND 48000 Hz?

As to "more bits equals more sound':

With the 32bit/64bit computing, you get more instructions per clock cycle with 64 bit, so it's faster -

You're in the army. The CO yells "Cover!"
This means: "The enemy is coming, jump down on the ground and cover your head!"
In 32 bit computing, you may need 2 cycles to send that whole sentence to the CPU, but only 1 with 64 bit, so twice as fast.
(and the importance of new instruction sets... you can just send the command "Cover" and the computer knows to execute the sentence)
Now in digital music, it's the opposite.
The CO yells "Cover!"
In 16 bit, the computer hears cover, and writes down:
'enemy, jump down on ground'
In 24 bit, the computer hears cover and writes down:
'The enemy is coming, jump down on the ground and cover your head!'
A more complete rendering of the information.

Rockaxe

member since: 09/12/2008
messages: 91
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/22/2009


I seem t have no probs using the RP to get true 24bit recording done.
USB in/out and monitored through my amp and it all sounds good with no latency in reaper. the only time i found i had latency was when i tried to get it to Input-USB....Output-soundcard. it worked but was left with about 7ms of latency.

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/22/2009


Thanks axe - you rock!

USB/RP250 ASIO is working great just like you describe and with zero latency.

audio system: ASIO
asio driver: RP250
in/out: USB
**ASIO configuration button: originally set at 140.6 ms - worked fine... all the way down to 10 ms.
However, choosing 5.6 ms (the fastest setting) resulted in no input signal. Doesn't matter as 140ms works fine. I picked 10ms to use.

Now... to monitor....

I ran my 1/8"-1/8" plug from headphone out to line-in of sound card.
Now I can hear everything in perfect sync through my computer speakers and everything recording properly.
I selected CD digital as the recording option in my sound card panel, and disabled the input and turned record volume all the way down just to be sure it wasn't recording it 'twice'.

So now I can use USB/ASIO, bypassing the soundcard conversion of the signal, and monitor in real time from my computer with zero latency!!

Nice to have it finally tweaked out!

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/22/2009


Welll.......................... F$CK!
Guess I spoke too soon.

If you just want to record guitar and maybe have 1 or 2 backing tracks with it, it works ok.

Get into a full project, and it's buggy as hell.
3 total tracks it works ok.
4, maybe.
5? forget about it.

My typical project has 4 VSTi's and 10 VST's and 10 audio tracks.
Try and work on that with the RP250 USB/ASIO. NOPE

-!-

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/22/2009


Update:

So it seems the RP250 ASIO drivers just can't handle VSTi's/soundfonts (virtual instrument plugins).

Any more than 2 or 3 VSTi tracks and everything goes to crap.
Audio doesn't seem to be a problem and can handle many tracks.

So I guess the workaround is to render your VSTi's to .wav, insert that on a new track, and remove the VSTi's for recording new parts.
Added bonus is now you've freed up the CPU from having to process all those VSTi's in real-time.

Guess can't fault Digitech too much as it works ok when using as intended, recording/playing audio - not as a full-blown ASIO driver for a DAW.

Rockaxe

member since: 09/12/2008
messages: 91
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/23/2009


THE absolutly best way i found was to use ASIO4ALL and in the offline setting select RP250 input only and soundcard OUTPUT ONLY. this still munches the CPU power but tends not to have any latency with the usb input and dosnt seem to glitch out when using VST's.

just on another note capthook, have u tried using the freeze track function on your VST tracks once you are happy with them, this free's up the CPU ,renders to a temp track, and is totally reversable if you want to work more with that track!!!!

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/23/2009


On a scale of 1-10, ASIO4ALL is a 1 on my computer. Pops, crackles, the timeline rolls along at 10% pace etc...
The Creative ASIO works ok.

And yeah, that's the workaround I was talking about, rendering the VSTi's and then removing the whole VSTi from the track.
For some reason, even a muted VSTi track wreaks havoc with the RP250 ASIO driver.

Guess it's a matter of figuring out the best workflow around the RP250 ASIO drivers.
Example:
1) record a quick guitar part
2) switch to non-RP250 driver
3) Create a midi drum track (Yellow Tools Free)
4) Put each drum piece on a seperate track for tweakability
5) Render each track to .wav and place as new track in project.
6) save the file to be able to go back to and edit drum part if needed.
7) Delete the VSTi tracks completly.
and so on....

VSTi's (for me anyway) and RP250 ASIO drivers don't play nice together one bit!!

And I wish there was a way to adjust the USB output level on the pedal rather than having to adjust in X-edit.

Rockaxe

member since: 09/12/2008
messages: 91
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/23/2009


there is. in every preset the first row in edit mode is for pickupsim right. the 2 middle knobs are not for that when you select that row. the second knob is for adjusting the output amount from input and output. the third knob is for recording level.

capthook

member since: 10/30/2009
messages: 21
 

Subject:

Re: DAW/Music production / LMMS

11/23/2009


Aaahhh - that's some good info rockaxe!!

Tweaking presets on the pedal is pretty well done with the red lights down the left and everything is well labeled.
Except of course for the 2 spots on the face plate without labels, the USB mix and output!

Thanks!

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